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Proper way of falling down (Judo/BJJ/Karate vs Systema)
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MelnikAlex



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Proper way of falling down (Judo/BJJ/Karate vs Systema) Reply with quote

Lets say you are going to fall down flat on your back... which is the best way to do it?

Either:

1) Judo/BJJ/Karate breakfall
Tuck chin in, hands at your chest, squat down as you fall and slap the ground with both your hands keeping about a 30 degree angle between your body and each hand. This is both effective for falling on mats and harder surfaces such as grass and concrete as the slapping motion of your hands takes away most of the impact of the fall.

2) Systema
I am not fully sure if I am right about this, but from what I remember the main thing you have to do is place your hand behind your head to protect it and sort of squat on one leg as you fall towards the ground.

Since I trained in systema for a while and now do MMA, i sort of mix these two different "breakfalls". I tuck my chin in, hold the back of my head to protect it, while slapping the ground with my other hand to absorb some of the impact, all while squatting a bit as I am falling. Works well when slammed/ taken down by wrestlers and such in sport situations. If you just let them take you down without doing anything, you feel the impact throughtout your whole body, especially in the back, chest and head.

What do some of you think about this? How would a breakfall differ from a sport situation to a street situation? Is it practical to slap the ground (as done in judo breakfalls) in a street situation?
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Michael Andrew
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practice falling outside on the ground, near some rocks and stones, mabee some broken glass, your answer is waiting for you.

Resistance is futile -The Borg.
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John Elliott



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MelnikAlex

Having spent roughly the same amount of time doing both, I can only tell you that in my experience rolling is more practical than breakfalling.

That said, I think you misunderstand how both these things work. I mean, in practice, it's rare to see picture perfect ukemi in a judo match. In fact, many competitive judoka actually spend a lot of time learning how not to fall in perfect ukemi, because then it won't be a full ippon, but maybe a wazari, koka, etc.

Similarly in systema I have found that the roll you do really depends on the angle and how you were thrown. We have had drills, for example, where you are thrown in a hip throw - and the answer was NOT to do a front victory roll, but to absorb with the feet and counter with a bridge. Because this was the most convenient thing to do.

This goes back to responding to the situation rather than trying to dictate it. If I find myself going down in a given direction, the best response is to roll that way in a comfortable manner. Think like a ball. Again, in practice judo is like this too.

Quote:
I am not fully sure if I am right about this, but from what I remember the main thing you have to do is place your hand behind your head to protect it and sort of squat on one leg as you fall towards the ground.


Hmmm... there's a lot missing from this description, but lord knows I have not enough time to try and type out the nuances of rolling. To be fair, you've left a lot of important stuff from the judo ukemi as well. In fact, based on your post I would say your knowledge of both is kind of cursory. I'll just say I think the most important point is to be relaxed. If you've ever had the opportunity to standup grapple on a tile floor, you will appreciate this. Landing softy on your own terms will supersede your need to remain standing. In fact, being too stiff will get you thrown harder.

more later
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Tony Wolf



Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 58
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've studied a number of approaches to safe falling, including different Asian martial arts, professional and freestyle wrestling, stage combat/stuntwork and modern dance. Of these, the falling methodology of contact improvisation (a modern dance form) is closest to what I have seen of Systema falling.

http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/ - a proposed alternative method of judo ukemi, drawing from wrestling and gymnastics

http://www.judoinfo.com/lee.htm - a reply to the above by the judo establishment

http://proximity.slightly.net/v_four/v4e4a2.htm -
http://www.martinkeogh.com/resources/workshoptaught.html - essays about falling/"pouring" as practiced in contact improvisation.
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Woody Mims



Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 173
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there

IIRC, on the Ground Fighting I video, Vladimir addresses the issue of slapping the ground to absorb the energy of the fall. He advises against it as it involves a significant risk of injury to the elbow AND if you maintain a relaxed body through proper breathing, you disipate the energy of the fall in the same manner as you would in absorbing a strike. This negates the need and/or desirability of slapping the floor.

Hope this assists in your understanding.

Warmest regards

Woody
Systema-Cascadia
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John Elliott



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to finish with an anecdote, but had to leave town for the day...

I have a friend who I used to train with in jjj and judo for some years. Eventually we left that dojo, and he ultimately ended up working out at jimmy wu's wu style TJQ school in toronto, where he got involved with push hands tournies - basically chinese wrestling with standing locks thrown in. We met up some tome after I had started systema and we did a class together.

One thing that came up was how does a systema man deal with high-amplitude judo-type throws? He said he just didn't trust the front roll to handle the power of an o-goshi (hip throw) for example. So after much badgering on my part, I convinced him to do an o-goshi on me. Now, keep in mind this is artificial because I knew it was coming but... As soon as he broke my kuzushi and entered, I pivoted on my right foot (he was going to throw me over his right hip), and did a back roll in the direction he was going to throw me in. In judo it would have been an ippon, but it didn't hurt, so I didn't care. OTOH, if I had struggled, I would have been slammed. I guess what I'm sayng here is find what's comfortable given the circmstances, meet the ground on your terms as much as possible.
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Matthew 25:31-46

"The easiest way to get hurt is to stand in the middle of the road. " - Furman
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Bradley Scheel



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 1346
Location: CYBERIA//Absurdistan/Wisconsin

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool
anint nothin' like a sweet jellyroll....
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valdis



Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: nyc

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your skills go at least this far
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zcZOaXTTyU&search=systema
it won't matter much how....
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matt olevich



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val Hainley wrote:
If your skills go at least this far
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zcZOaXTTyU&search=systema
it won't matter much how....


wow
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MelnikAlex



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val Hainley wrote:
If your skills go at least this far
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zcZOaXTTyU&search=systema
it won't matter much how....


I never actually tried it like that, but I can easily roll on concrete without any problem. If you land on the muscle it doesnt hurt.
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Evgeny Shmeilin



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 60
Location: Toronto, ON

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this clip looks like a sambo roll. important thing during a forward roll is not to land on a spine, rather soft sides of a shoulder, or any other soft sides of the back. (in my opinion)
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Demetry Furman



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 589
Location: CFB Petawawa

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evgeny Shmeilin wrote:
this clip looks like a sambo roll. important thing during a forward roll is not to land on a spine, rather soft sides of a shoulder, or any other soft sides of the back. (in my opinion)
Yap... this guy is going across his spine, from shoulder to hip. There is nothing wrong with that, and his rolling is very impressive, it is non-the less slightly different from the standard roll that is taught in Systema.

If we were to put on a tack. vest and various other military equipment the roll would have to be different.
Ultimately, rolling is supposed to also protect the spine and the head.
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Brian King



Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 395
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA. USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Comprehensive Screening Test for Falling Risk Developed Reply with quote

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100324094644.htm
Quote:
Comprehensive Screening Test for Falling Risk Developed
ScienceDaily (Mar. 24, 2010) More than one-third of adults ages 65 and older fall each year in the U.S., and, according to the Centers for Disease Control, 40 percent of all seniors admitted to the hospital are there due to injuries from falls. However, a new study has found that falls are not just a problem for older adults. Researchers have found that people in their 20s and 30s have significant issues affecting their balance, indicating an increased risk for falling.
Carmen Abbott, an associate clinical professor in the University of Missouri School of Health Professions, has developed a screening test that could quickly diagnose an individual's risk of falling at any age. This primary fall prevention strategy could then be used to reduce the risk of falling
"It's very important for adults to understand their own fall-risk factors," Abbott said. "This test can become a primary prevention strategy that can be used in regular screenings."
Abbott's fall-risk screening was given to 190 adults between the ages of 20-79. Surprisingly, the study found significant concerns in physical performance for adults in the 20-30 age group, making the test relevant for adults well below the age of 65.
"Falling prevention should include all ages," Abbott said. "It isn't just a problem for older adults. Some participants were in awe of how well they did or didn't do."

Clip


Have you ever watched people walking on uneven or slippery terrain or watched people traversing down a slope? The fear of falling limits and puts people in ever constricting boxes. One of the benefits in my opinion of Systema training for students no matter how long they train for is the change of perspective of falling that we achieve. After just a short time of training the fear of falling is mostly conquered. This learning to overcome a fear most have had all but the first few months of our lives is such a positive strengthening event. Once knowledge on how to face this primal fear is learnt then this same knowledge can be used to face other fears as they appear in our lives and we can help others in our lives face their fears. For Systema students I do not think this means that you need to learn all kinds of acrobatics or fancy falling skills, but I do believe that you should learn how to fall safely on all kinds of different terrains in all different conditions.

Regards
Brian King
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Peter Djordjevich



Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Roseville, CA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've mentioned this before, but over the past year of watching my sister play roller derby, I've seen at least 10 broken ankles, wrists, and/or torn up knees. All of them a result of not knowing how to fall, or not wanting to fall. The injuries don't happen when you would expect, i.e. a massive body check that sends the skater flying. More often then not, it simply happens when they turn left and maybe hit a kink in the rink surface. In most cases it's because the skater refuses to fall when their body is telling them to fall. Either because of fear of falling, or due to an ego thing like you must be a weak minded fool to fall down and admit defeat. So, they go home broken instead of bruised.
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Koen Vandersteene



Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you fall do it a relaxed as possible. That's why we do exercises of going to the ground unexpectantly without tension and of changing planes during movement. Being relaxed and soft is the key. It also opens up defense opportunities because you're not focused on the contact with the ground. You simply don't care anymore about it. The floor is your friend but slapping that friend to break your fall is something you will only do once. It's a feeling you'll never forget and one you will never want to experience again.
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